Mari: 00:18
Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast where we read, watch, and discuss romanticy and romance adjacent stories. I'm one of your hosts, Mari, and with me I have Kelly.

Kelly: 00:27
Hey everyone, it's Kelly. We also have Ashley.

Ashley: 00:30
Hi guys, it's Ashley. We also have Jonathan.

Jonathan: 00:33
Good evening, everybody. It's JP. I don't I don't think I'm the last one here tonight, though.

Mari: 00:38
We actually have a very special guest today. Sabri!

JR Ward: 00:42
It's me. It's JR Ward. By the way, am I allowed to cuss? Because I'm gonna do everything I can not to, but yeah. No, it's fine. There you go. No, it all out.

Mari: 00:54
It's all adult here. And also, I've been to one of your one of your well-aware. Yeah. We're all adults. It's all good.

JR Ward: 01:03
Yay. So I am the author of the Black Tiger Brotherhood series and some other series, and I'm just really glad to be here.

Mari: 01:09
Yay!

Mari: 01:10
We're super glad to have you. I randomly texted you to see if you'd be interested in interview, fully expecting no response whatsoever.

JR Ward: 01:22
So very happy. Yeah, and I'm a big fan. First of all, I really like, and no offense to the gentleman on the call, but I really I I take very seriously supporting women, and I also believe in shooting your shot. Yeah. So I was I'm really happy to be here.

Mari: 01:37
Yay! So we stumbled across you for this podcast because of your new romanticy book that you have out. But that's not the thing that you're mainly known for. Like the main thing I would say, if people know your name, it would be because of the BDB series. Yes.

JR Ward: 01:54
Yes. But I am, but you know, I'm really I'm committed to Kingdoms of the Compass, which is the romanticy series. There are four books in it, and they're gonna come out once a year. The next one comes out April 4th of next year. And it it it was actually a story that's 20 years old, but we can get into that later if you want. But but I'm really happy to be able because I think there's a lot of parallels between romanticy and then what I've been doing with the BDB for 20 fucking years.

Mari: 02:25
So um so so it seems like a natural kind of hop over. Absolutely. Well, we can get into Crown of War and Shadow now, because we've we recently read the book.

Mari: 02:35
 I read it twice. I very much enjoyed it. And I know I I've like I've I think I'm the biggest fan of your stuff of the four of us. So I've heard how that book came about, but I think a lot of our listeners don't necessarily know the the origin story. So how did you decide to do Crown of One Shot? How did the romantic jump come about?

JR Ward: 02:55
Well, so I I I always wrote just as a hobby, and then my now my now husband, then boyfriend was like, he'd find these partials, right? He's like, This is a real book. And I'm like, I'm never gonna be published. And this was back in the Stone Ages when there wasn't the internet and I didn't know any authors, and I was a lawyer, and I'm like, I'm this is just what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life, and I'm perfectly fine with it. And miraculously, I got an offer, and I had my first four books come up under the name Jessica Byrd, and they were kind of written in the Nora Roberts traditional romance style. And of course, you know, you have to start somewhere, but if people are gonna read a Nora Roberts book, they're gonna read a Nora Roberts book. And so I got shit-canned by my publisher, which was the right thing for them to do because although the books were critically well acclaimed, they weren't selling as well as they had to. So I was trying desperately not to be a lawyer for the rest of my life. And my agent of the time said, You need to figure out what a Jessica Byrd book is. You know, Jair, you know, whatever. And so I sat there for two weeks, and I the way it works for me is I have pictures in my head and I just am their secretary. I'm not even an executive assistant. I am a secretary, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just take, I just describe what I'm being shown such that if I do my job correctly, the readers can read the words and see the pictures that I'm seeing. Um, the only influence I have over the stories is the scenes don't come in chronological order. So my job is to kind of put them in a chronological order and kind of figure out how those pieces fit together. But other than that, I have no influence over anything. I don't create anything. I'm not a creative person. I'm not, you know, I'm not smart enough to think of these books. I just am watching movies in my head and typing. And so when I set the Black Dagger Brotherhood off, I was like, well, it's never gonna get picked up. Because back then it was quite extreme, you know, with the hero getting the heroine's name carved in his back at the wedding ceremony and the mating ceremony. And I was like, well, it's never going to be, it's never ever gonna be published. So while I was waiting to hear back, I had a vision of four people sitting around in a medieval stone turret, and they were all sort of cloaked, and there was a compass in the center. And so I was like, Well, I I you know, I'm kind of the first reader of these things. So I was like, Well, I want to know what this is about. And so the Kingdom of the Compass series kind of like landed there, and then I found out that the Black Tiger Brotherhood was gonna be published, and I got a three-book contract, and so I kind of shelved it. And so two years ago, I had a little space in my schedule, and my agent said, You don't have anything that could, you know, maybe appeal to the romanticy market. And I said, Actually, I have funny story. Funny story. And so I took the old outline out. It was on those um three and a half inch floppy discs that were actually hard and plastic. Yes, yes. And so I found it and I reworked it so that it would work from a first-person point of view. And I, you know, was fortunate enough to get a four-book contract on on the idea. And I I love the, I will say the romanticies are really hard to write. They're very the Black Dagger Brotherhood is really, really, really hard to write, but I've been in it and I know what I'm doing, you know, after two decades of it. So I kind of know, but but figuring out how to do first person in that environment, figuring out what, you know, because you're you're putting out a commercial product. It's it's not just something for me to consume. So you have certain, you it's not that you are writing to the market, you're just writing with an awareness of within the pictures in my head, what are the pictures and the storylines that are going to most appeal

JR Ward: 06:50
 to the readers. And so that's how it came about.

Mari: 06:54
Awesome. So it's just funny that you describe, because I've heard you describe that before, that you kind of see the whole picture in your head. Because I know that's one of the things we talked about when we read the book. I think Ash mentioned it that it felt very like cinematic cinematic.

JR Ward: 07:09
That's how it's felt like a movie. That's how it Yeah, and particularly when they're in the the Lake of Lost Souls, but they don't know it, or she doesn't know it. And they're in those boulders, and and you see this like like just dehydrated land all around at the bottom of this basin, and you see the the big, you know, the big black bird of prey coming after her, and the and the horses and the knife, and it's just all very and the and the vistas, the vistas and the different, like the ruins, and then the castles and the village and the and the travel roads and everything, and and the beasts, and it's it's all very what I that's one of the fun things about writing romancy is that you get to go to these really cool, fun places.

Mari: 07:53
Right. Now I know, and you you can say as much or as little, you know, as you want to say about this, but I know like with Black Dagger Brotherhood, it tends to you have an overarching story, but you have like main characters, and it's not always the same main characters in every book. Is it gonna be like that for this series? Is it gonna be jumping around with different main characters?

JR Ward: 08:13
So the so the second book we're still with Sorel and Merck, and then the third book we're with someone else, and the fourth book we're with someone else. But it's all in the same, it's all in the same world, in the same conflict, within the same, you know, it's it's not yeah, it's not anything new in that regard. We're still fighting the bad guy, the same bad guy.

Mari: 08:37
Exciting. Yeah, I'm I'm very much looking forward to it. I will uh be reading it as it as they come out for sure. I'm very grateful. Um do you guys have any questions about Carnivore and Shadow before we jump into anything else, guys?

Jonathan: 08:54
I I don't.

Jonathan: 08:55
 Ashley May.

Ashley: 08:57
I do?

Jonathan: 08:58
I think I thought you did.

Ashley: 08:59
I mean, I have I have questions all over the place. But I don't know that it's specific to to the romanticy book itself. Okay.

JR Ward: 09:06
Well listen, just ask me. Well, I'm sorry, um I'm happy to not take over this podcast and sit here and and and and I will wait patiently. 

JR Ward: 09:17
No, absolutely.

Mari: 09:18
Feel free to take over. I would say jumping to the Black Dagger Brotherhood series for people who don't know anything about it. What would you tell them that it is for newbies?

JR Ward: 09:29
That unless you're ready to actually my publisher would kill me if I say that. I was like, well, unless you're ready to go down a 23-book black hole from which you will not emerge unscathed. Emotional damage. Yeah, yeah, right. Emotional damage. So, like, I yeah, no, I'm like, no, you should avoid it. Like, those are hours of your life you will not get back. My publisher would not like me to say that. It's it's the thing that I love most about it is is that in modern life, outside of romantic suspense, where like there's someone trying to kill you, okay. Modern life doesn't have a lot of the kind of visceral conflict and and and deadly stakes and deadly conflict that that that you have in a world populated by vampires fighting an immortal enemy. Yeah. So one of the things that I think is the reason why it appear appeals to people, although I feel weird hyping up my own stuff, um, is because within the context of vampires with fangs and world building and this war, very human emotions come out through these vampires. And over the last 20 years, I have been struck by the number of people who were like, oh, you know, you covered this in the book and that's part of my story. And oh, you covered, oh, that they lived this and that's part of my story. And, you know, whether it's addiction or trauma or, you know, living with disabilities. Living with disabilities, family problems. I I have always been struck by the number of people who say I have seen myself in these books. And I've always been very grateful for that because I think it's I think when someone comes forward and tells you about the things that hurt the most or or or the things that that they feel weakest about, that's um an intimacy among what otherwise would be strangers that's a very sacred space. And one of the reasons why I love doing events and talking to readers, fans, and the fandom. And those are three different subsets of people who read the books, and they're not the same necessarily, is I love the joking. Like I will do almost anything for a laugh. Like I want to lead with humor always because life is fucking hard enough. But when someone welcomes you into those very sacred, vulnerable spaces, it's it's an honor. And it only happened because these pictures showed up in my head 20 years ago. And I feel like I'm one of the luckiest people. Fuck Powerball. I I'm the I'm one of the luckiest people I know because these pictures and my ability to to write about them have given me a whole community to be a part of. Because I don't feel like I lead it. I don't lead it. The fandom and the and the fans and the readers, it's their community, and I'm a member of it, is how I always see it.

Mari: 12:36
Nice. Well, I'm one of those weirdos who loved vampire books growing up, like loved them, and somehow managed to completely miss all your books through the 90s and 2000s. And I did not discover you till last year. And I was like, 20-something books, sign me up. Oh my gosh. Um, yeah.

Jonathan: 12:59
I've just seen the checking account for that one.

Mari: 13:04
I first heard about your book through a YouTuber who does books about incorporating disabilities and whatnot. And so yeah, I first heard about it through there, and I'm like, oh, that sounds interesting. And then I heard about the TV show, and I'm like, well, if I'm gonna watch a TV show, I should read it first, and just hooked from there on out. Like this, these books, I would have loved them in the 90s. I don't know where, what rock I was living under, but I didn't think that these books existed. But if you

Mari: 13:30
 wer  e like a 90s goth kid, th  is is your chance. Yeah. I agree.

JR Ward: 13:37
I agree.

Jonathan: 13:38
The stories that you tell when you what you just shared with us about like people coming to you and telling you about how these how these  stories maybe spoke to them. Like I had the exact moment in an adjacent story that you that you wrote. Not an adjacent, but a different you wrote it, different genre. But let me tell you, you hit the nail on the head right down to almost exact stories that I experienced in high school. I was blown away. Like I was I thought, how the fuck does she know?

JR Ward: 14:15
Like I don't know where the I d I I'm honored and I don't mean to cut you off. Please continue. I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

Jonathan: 14:22
Oh no, no, no, go ahead.

Mari: 14:24
Go ahead.

JR Ward: 14:25
Um, I I I think that uh the human condition if people drop the bullshit and connect on honest emotion and hon esty about themselves, as long as you're not a fucking asshole.

Mari: 14:41
Right.

JR Ward: 14:41
Uh I think that that's really where people can forge bonds, even if like my lived experience is different than yours. And I don't know where the stories come from in my head. My best friend is a leukemia survivor, and she read Lover Eternal. And because Mary has leukemia in that book, she said, she emailed me and said, you know, this was 20 years ago. Um, and was like, you know, I just want to let you know that this really as a as a survivor, I'm I'm amazed at at how you do. I'm very careful with with what I do. And I I don't a lot of the things that are in the books, I don't I haven't lived myself. But I think if you if you talk to people and you want to know their stories and you want to be with them and to to share, have listen to what they have to say about themselves, the only thing I can think of is there must be some sort of, I don't know, in my head, I must I I remember a lot of conversations I've had with people that have gone in a lot of directions that are very deep. And I that it has to come out of that. I don't know where and I'm always very careful, by the way, that I'm very respectful, that I don't portray myself as something I'm not. You know what I mean?

Mari: 15:59
That I, you know, I think you do a really good job with the Black Tiger Brotherhood series with multiple different conditions and disabilities and things that people are living with in there that at no point does is that their only defining characteristic of of that character. Like it's that's it's she's not just a looking at survivor, you know, it's not just a blind person or whatever. Like it's people who are fully fleshed and have all sorts of things going on, and also happen to have, you know, whatever an amputated leg, you know.

JR Ward: 16:29
Yeah. One of my um dear friends is paralyzed from the waist down, and she is one of the strongest people I know, and not because she overcame a disability, it's because she's a fucking badass who likes rock climbs and like does sled hockey and she lives out loud, and like, you know, she's she's a spectacular athlete and one of the strongest, smartest people I've ever met in my life. And and that, and I often I knew her after I'd written a number of the books, and I was like, you know, she's just she's a bad, she's a badass, you know. And with the fact that she's done

JR Ward: 17:10
 all that with with some of the physical challenges you've been through, like I'm a fucking wuss compared to her. And I just I have such great respect and regard for people who who are just badasses, you know?

Mari: 17:22
Absolutely. So, Jonathan, you read uh one of her books that I haven't read, right? You read, was it St. Ambrose School for Girls? Oh that's one of my favorite books ever.

Jonathan: 17:34
Oh my god. It was I I'm gonna like so I'm gonna be candid here. Mari loves you. 1000%.

Mari: 17:44
And not being parasocial here. I love your work. I don't know you. I love your work.

Mari: 17:49
Yeah.

Jonathan: 17:50
Yeah, she she a fan.

Mari: 17:52
Yeah.

Jonathan: 17:52
100%. So I and sometimes when we when we go through books, I try to explore and figure out are there are there other things that the author wrote that become more appealing to me? And and when I went down the rabbit hole, I was like, hey, there's a lot of JR's got a lot of shit. It's got a lot of stuff going on. I came across I came across this book and I thought, you know, I just want to get a little bit outside of what we were doing and start like maybe I have enough time to read this book over the next few days. And I I started it and then I just didn't put it fucking down. Um holy just holy shit. The right down to uh medicated, right? Yeah, the uh the experiences that I had. So I had a slightly different I I was sort of misdiagnosed, but I was hit with this. Um the flag football or the touch football situation. That uh like right down to I was in I remember just being in that space and it and just uh having to deal with that uh uh navigate that pure situation.

Mari: 19:06
Yeah.

Jonathan: 19:06
But I think what really what really sealed the deal for me is and actually chime in on this. When people send me an email, actually, what's the fastest way for me to archive that email?

Ashley: 19:20
If you're CT'd.

Jonathan: 19:21
Well that too, yeah. Ct'd. But in the body of the email, it comes down to punctuation. Like it's just how my mind works. Oftentimes I get kind of in trouble at work. Um they didn't ask me a question. There's a period at the end of that. So your character is reading this flyer and they're like, something's up. This punctuation is off. Like I I I can promise you earlier today it was I said to my I said to a colleague, it's this is this is possessive plural. We need to put the apostrophe after the S. And and like and I'm fairly and I said, I'm anxious because we're gonna share this document out. Somebody's gonna change that on me, and I'm not gonna like that, but I have to live with it kind of thing. So that detail, that level of detail for your character to pick up on that. I was like, holy shit. Like it just hit so hard, and um it was great to see that that sort of representation. I'm not gonna lie, like I'm I'm hoping to hear more about in that in that vein.

JR Ward: 20:19
I want to know what's gonna happen with Sarah and Straits, and I want to know what's well so so there's actually a second book in there, which I I I want to be able to write. I'm gonna have to, I don't know, I don't know how to fit it in, but she goes to college. And if you think what happened at St. Ambrose was fucked up, it is nothing compared to what happens at college. You see, I I one of the things that I loved about Sarah, and I think because I've got a I've got an odd mind that gets me that is to kind of was really hard to handle my brain when I was younger. And the thing that Sarah's greatest strength is also what makes her feel so separated from everybody else, you know, because her brain is is almost like a not almost her brain is another character in the book, you know? And so what happens in college is really fucked up, and it's fantastic. Oh, I want to write that book so badly. I might have to, I might have to like you're re-enervating me for that whole series.

Jonathan: 21:18
Listen, I'm excited. I've got I've got goosebumps because it is when you said that her brain is a whole different like I'm telling you, you're fucking gaslighting me through this story. I at some point I had to let go and just let let let your words come to me because it was I'm still I'm trying to like I have this like analytical brain. I want to figure it out. And yeah, yeah. I got about halfway through it and I was like, Is this one of the things?

JR Ward: 21:44
You're looking for patterns. You're like, yeah, your little brain is like, where's the pattern? Where's the pattern? Tap, tap, tap, tap, where's the vein? Yep, yep, yep, yeah.

Jonathan: 21:52
You gotta let go. Just you just let let let let loose. Let let her run straight and true, and you'll and you you ah, you took that fucking ride.

JR Ward: 22:01
Well, and the and the end, and that the let the scene with Stratz i in Stratz's room. That's one of my favorite scenes I've ever written. Emotion. When she's like, Yeah, yeah, but but when she's like, you know, basically reality is what you tell your brain it is. It's not actually what it is. So this is what happened. Shut up. And I I loved it. I love it. Oh god, I loved it. Loved it.

Jonathan: 22:25
Loved it.

JR Ward: 22:26
I'm not gonna get in too far.

Jonathan: 22:28
I was excited for it. I'm so glad that it went the way it went. And I'm I'm looking forward to her post-secondary education.

JR Ward: 22:35
And Strauss is one of my favorite characters ever.

Jonathan: 22:38
Oh yeah. Absolutely. Like I had I I and I'm not gonna lie, I thought I thought for sure I was walking face first in like an Othello.

Mari: 22:46
Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan: 22:47
And I was like, when you man, what a fucking journey. What a what a highly recommended.

Ashley: 22:54
And for context, he devoured this. Like I didn't even know. So Jonathan prefers audiobooks, right? To to read companionship with physical books. Yeah. So if there's not an audiobook, we're we're definitely not like we had to watch a movie the other week that had subtitles and he just watched it for context. So like he needs he needs the audio part of it. So I didn't even know he downloaded this book because you're you returned the dates so quickly that I was just like, I'm screwed. I'm not gonna be able to get a book in. And other than of course the romanticy that we read. And then by Saturday morning, we were driving somewhere and he's like, babe, I can't talk to you right now. I got 15 minutes left in this book. I have to finish it. I come to find out he had binged your book in like a 24-hour period.

Jonathan: 23:36
Like 4 30 a.m. until well.

Ashley: 23:39
I wake up.

Jonathan: 23:40
I wake up at like 4 a.m. every yeah. I'm like a I'm robotic in that sense where I got four hours.

Ashley: 23:45
I mean, so that's reasonable. He has a few, he has a bit more time in his day than I do as a person who likes to sleep in and and really just sleep the day away. But like to devour an audiobook, even at the speeds that he does, which are abnormal, I I that's true. He can do two, three times the speed. I slowed her down the speed. I know you I know you I was like, I was like, I just I wanted her to appreciate the level of like I'm really honored though.

JR Ward: 24:10
And also Yeah, I'm really honored because that is really so the the way that came up was I had a dream of her coming out of the water and I was like, it's it's it's a long story, but I I had this vision of of Sarah, and I was like, who the f oh? I'm screwed. I I and I I I I I saw her and I was like, I I had to I had to say, no, you can't listen, brain, we're not going there, we're over here. And it just refused. And so I wrote the book in three weeks. It just poured onto the page in between, and I was waking, so I'm an early riser as well. And I was getting up and and and just like like working for three hours in the morning before I did the rest of my work. And then one afternoon I just finished it and it was it just poured out of me. And I was amazed that Gallery was willing to to print it because it's not part of my normal, you know, it's not, it's it's not paranormal romance, it's not even romance at all. So I it really I'm I'm so glad you liked it because that's like it was it was the a book of my heart. I hate using that phrase, but it also is true for that and dark lover and also Crayon. So I'm very grateful.

Jonathan: 25:26
I appreciate you for that. That was um a delightful, a delightful treat, I'm gonna be honest.

Mari: 25:33
Yeah, because when I told everybody like the you know that you'd you'd be able to record and when I fully like there was no expectation for anyone to read any more books than the one we had read. And then Jonathan said he read that, I'm like, you you did what?

Ashley: 25:45
Yeah. Like osmosis, like he devoured it. It was what it was so wonderful to watch. Because that it's it's hit or miss for him, right? Especially know, not especially as a boy, but like in this in this genre, even. So I was I literally woke up and he was like, Yeah, I finished this book. I was like, what do you mean? When did you when did you even start it? That's not a reasonable amount of time to devour a book, sir. Sir.

JR Ward: 26:11
Um, but yeah, no, I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful. I really am because I love Sarah and I'd love to now I'm now now see now. The other problem that I have is like even now, like all of a sudden the pictures will get in the way. Like all of a sudden I'm starting to have pictures of her in college as I'm talking to you guys, and I'm I have to tell my brain, no, no, we're not doing that now. And so my ice cream will be like, sorry, brain, no, no, we have to like, and I I I often I often I think I experience like my brains like this other thing because like every once in a while something will get stuck, and I'll be like, All right, I have to tell it, no, we're not doing this. It's like, and and sometimes it just the distraction is so like for the pictures and the worlds in my head, and my husband will find like the the milk in the cupboard and the saran wrap and the refrigerator, and there's like you know, there's just you know, debris field all over everything, and he's like, Oh, sweetie. I'm like, I know, I'm sorry, I can't.

Mari: 27:05
So amazing like works of art. It's never I do nothing. Oh no, that's not true. I'm sure.

JR Ward: 27:15
Oh

JR Ward: 27:15
 my gosh, that's hysterical. No, I'm sure that's not true. I'm sure that's not true.

Mari: 27:20
Yeah, so so we've talked Black Dagger Brotherhood, we've talked Crown of Born Shadow.

Jonathan: 27:25
Can you read Black Dagger Brotherhood in is it chronological or do any of them stand alone?

JR Ward: 27:33
Um, so the the so okay, the great thing about the Jack Reacher series is or written by Lee Child, is that Reacher is the same guy every single book. So you can read the fifth book and the twelfth book and the first book and the fourth book, and he he, as we also as we say, Jack Reacher learns nothing, he evolves in no way whatsoever. It's the external world, and he hits the he hits the external world, and that's where all the conflict comes from. The Black Tiger Brotherhood, one of the, I guess you could say, defects in that series is that it is one of those things that that that it you can absolutely read them standing alone 100%, but they do have hooks. So they kind of run one into another, into another, into another. And that's not that is not a calculation on my part. It's just the way my brain saw things when it was happening. Like all the pictures, it all runs together. Like these people live their lives and their lives continue on even after their books are finished, which is why like you've got Lover Eternal and then The Beast, you've got Dark Lover and then The King. Like there's like other stories that happen in other books to the characters, in addition to new people coming in. And so you can absolutely read them, and particularly the books that are coming out now that are about the next generation. I had to do the next generation because you know, one of the things now that I'm an old fart that I've learned is everything has a beginning, middle, and an end, you know? And at some point, I will write my last Black Digger Brotherhood book. I will sign my last book, I will do my last event. I don't know when that happens, and I hope it's many, many years from now. But I didn't want to stop the series before I had shown where the kids end up as adults. Because like these vampires lived so long, and you know, so it's not as if we're dealing with wrath as an old fart, you know what I mean? Um so but I just I thought that it was important to give the complete picture of everything, and I do know the last scene of the entire series that's already come to me. I know that there will be a last book at some point. I mean, I've still got another, I mean, if I do one a year, I've got another 10 years ahead of me, probably, you know, but and that's good, that's good. Um, but eventually, yes, so this the the the long-winded answer is you can read them one after another, or you can kind of hop on a dark lover and see when you collapse, really, because it's a it's a um and and or you can also hop in like if you get to Lassiter, or you can just hop on at Lassiter and just read the last couple of books, you know.

Mari: 30:29
I'm between Savior

Mari: 30:30
 and Sinner right now, so I'm doing the blood truth legacy, like I'm on book four of that.

JR Ward: 30:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that that was fun. That was fun.

Mari: 30:37
I loved that. And there's also the TV show, Jonathan. So if you just wanted to watch the TV show, season one is book one, season two is coming out. Is there a date for when season?

JR Ward: 30:47
It's gonna be this fall, and we are in our third week of shooting right now, season two. And the fun that I I've had such a great experience. The cast is amazing. It was pretty fucking weird seeing these people. Like, so so I had the reason why I waited so long to do it is because I had been approached by a number of people who were heavy hitters in Hollywood. But my concern always was because it is a going concern and it has such a devoted fandom. I was like, unless I have some control over what this looks like, I'm I'm gonna fuck myself really hard and people are gonna be pissed. Yeah. And so I waited, and Passion Flicks has a reputation for sticking with the book. And so I was lucky in that I got casting approval, director approval, and script approval. And so that meant from the jump, I had the ability to really put the brakes on and see it, make sure that you're literally watching a scene, not unlike the way you hear an audio book. You're literally watching a scene right out of the fucking book. And of course, you can't put every scene in there. And there are a lot of things that require a lot of words to impart to a reader, but that you can create through ambiance and music, you can get feelings in people with relatively few spoken words, comparatively speaking, to a book dialogue. Um, so I learned a lot about, you know, just how people make movies, and that that's super fun. And I've got a great partner. And the the joking thing is that when we're shooting, I get texts all the time from Tosca, and it's these little tiny details about things, and like, okay, wait, is this right? Does you know, John's John Matthews bracelet, does it look like this? You know, what are this what are Zayus' scars look like on his back? Like, are these contacts the right color? And like, you know, so I I'm having a wonderful time. And I'm not sure.

Mari: 32:41
And super fans are gonna appreciate that. Like, I'm just on my first read-through, I don't consider myself a super fan, but like people who've like read these since the 90s, they're gonna they're gonna be like, oh, they got this right, you know, they did this the exact way.

JR Ward: 32:53
So well, and so that was one of the funny things when we finally got the rough cut. I'm sorry I interrupted you, but like so. We finally got the rough cut of the first six episodes of the first season. Because originally she was just gonna do three episodes, and then there was just so much stuff that was like cool that we wanted to shoot. She's like, All right, we're gonna blow this up. We're gonna do six episodes, you know, whatever. And so my best friend and I, we got the rough cut. I was like, my biffle, you have to come and watch this with me. And so we sat downstairs on the sofa and we got it up on the television. And just as the opening credits start to come, all I was thinking about was, please don't let me have shit the bed. Please let me have not shit the bed. Because I I had seen a lot of daily stuff from set and stuff, but you never know until you really get in there. And I was like, oh my god, what happens next? What happens next? What are they gonna do? And my podcast friend was like, You wrote this. What are you talking about? I was like, I know, but it's so so I got totally sucked in. And as always, I figure if I got sucked in, then chances are probably pretty good that other people will too.

Mari: 33:52
Absolutely. I gotta say, as I was getting into Black Doctor Brotherhood last year, one of the things that I enjoyed while reading the first book before the TV show came out was all the little TikTok videos and things of you meeting the castle. All done up in the house.

JR Ward: 34:07
Oh my god. So when I met the the the first person I met was was Robert Masser, who plays Wrath. And I bear in mind, I had approved, you know, the black suit that he was because it was the date night seamers that we were shooting when I when I was on set. So I had approved his wig, the contacts, the glasses, the boots, the black suit. Like I knew what he looked like. And they brought him to, we were shooting in this house, and they brought him up to where the porch and there were some steps down. And they brought me out, and this poor man is standing there. He doesn't know me from a hole in the wall. I mean, I, you know, I had seen his his addition, I was like, yeah, that's fucking Raf right there. And I saw him, took one look at him, and then all of a sudden, my brain went, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And my body was moving to the cadence of the noping, like the like the llama meme when you see him going nope, nope, nope, and the llamas going. All of a sudden, I am like moving across and away. And part of my my thing is like, you're being filmed now, so let's not make a total ass out of ourselves. And the second thing was, I was like, I'm really weirding this poor man out right now. And the third thing was, oh my god, that thing that has been living in my brain for 20 years is now standing in front of me, breathing and looking at me. I mean, it was just and and and and see a zami who plays vicious, he is so he his audition for vicious was so spot on. He did it with the goatee and the black glove. He was uber prepared for it. He'd gone into the book and everything, and his voice is so low that they had to re-modulate it in post-production because you couldn't hear it correctly. Like it was, and then Andrew Baer Nott, who plays Zadist, I made it 20 seconds into his audition and I couldn't watch. I shut it down. He looked so he was so much like Zadist, I was like, I can't see this. So it's been it's been a wonderful thing. I'm very lucky. And it has a huge fandom across the world. It was amazing. The response to that coming out was unbelievable. We crashed the the Passion Flicks website and and people could access it through Amazon, but they could the the app, we crashed the app. It was just fucking nutty, and it was great, and people love it, and yeah, it's just I'm I'm really lucky.

Mari: 36:28
It was a it was a great time watching it, so yeah.

JR Ward: 36:30
Yeah, I loved it too.

Mari: 36:32
Um so we're recording this on just for for people on the 30th of March. Today was the day that tickets dropped for Cincy, right? Yeah, yeah. I've never been to that. Tell tell us what that is.

JR Ward: 36:45
Um so holy shit, we oh god. So we have already sold out a Friday, and now we've got this problem. So it is Friday night, we're getting together with members of the cast, and we're gonna do a QA for about an hour, and then we're gonna have and let everyone take pictures of the cast. And we are curtailed to some degree for how much time we've got to take these pictures. So we were like, okay, 500 people, we know how many people we can move through with pictures of that. We sold out within, I don't know, two hours. It's gone. It's all gone. And then I was like, oh shit. So now we're trying, and it's a good problem to have because I want as many people to go as want to go. We are trying to figure out how we can somehow within the allotted time that we've got fit more people in. Uh so we're working on that. Then Saturday, starting at 11, I'm doing my actual part of the weekend, which is we have about we have a thousand people who come and they basically lob tomatoes at me for about two hours. And it is the best, it is the most fun I ever have. It is my favorite thing that I look forward to every year because I love a good joke, and I love the fact that the readers are so passionate about the stories and the brothers and everything. And it is so much fun for me, and I just love, love, love, love. I love that. It's my favorite thing ever. Then we have after that, we're going to take a break for a couple of hours. We're also having a picture with me, and then we are going to have a dance party, which we've never done before. And Tony and the Tan Lines. Yes, Tony and the Tan Lines are my favorite 80s cover band, and they all pretend that they are cheesy 1980s guys who'd be on the love boat and women, and they are so good. And they have they have a sax player, and it's just this great band. And so I'm gonna be down there making a jackass out of myself, and we're just gonna have people come in Halloween costumes and poseplay and come as you are, and we'll have snacks in an open bar, and it's just gonna be a party, a big old party, and that's that's what it is.

Mari: 39:04
Sounds like a good time.

JR Ward: 39:06
Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm I'm serious. It's just oh god, it's so much fun. And I'm really lucky. Um I feel, I know I keep saying that, and people are like, oh yeah, well, if you work hard, you can get lucky. I know a lot of writers that are better writers than I am, and I know writers that are every bit as passionate about their stories as I am about mine. And how I'm this lucky to have found all these people who want to read my books, I I don't know. I just know that I'm really grateful and I don't take it for granted. I didn't take it for for granted 20 years ago. I don't take it for granted now. And I just I just try and I write the very best book I can with and with what is being shown to me. And I just am so grateful for everybody.

Mari: 39:51
And we appreciate it, you know. I God willing, I will. Yeah. Last year you had a, I couldn't remember, I think it was a November event in Orlando. That's where I met you. Oh yes, yes, we're doing it again. That's what I was gonna ask.

JR Ward: 40:09
Yes. I see I want to say, I'm probably gonna get the date wrong, but it's like it's mid-November. I want to say it's like November 17th. It's um um we're gonna we're gonna have it down there, and it's going to be, yeah, I loved going to Lor Orlando. It was a great crowd, it was super fun, and yeah, I'm so excited.

Mari: 40:27
Is it gonna be in the same like theater, do you know?

JR Ward: 40:30
Yes, I think I think, yeah, I think we're gonna try and do it in the same because that was just a really great place. It was really nice. It fit a good crowd. And we might the problem is we've sold out of that too. So if we do move, it'll just be yeah, super fast. So we may we may try and open it up a little bit. Um, and then I'll be at a polycon in about a month. And then I have my Saratoga event in July, which is always the Saturday after the 4th of July. And then Cynthia, and then yeah, and then Orlando. Awesome.

Mari: 41:01
Well, if any listeners live in any of those areas, that's where you can come and go to any of those events for sure. Yay! Any questions you guys want to bring up?

Jonathan: 41:12
Yeah. How did you so aside from the obvious connection with the last name, the nickname the warden?

JR Ward: 41:20
Oh, yeah. Well, so this started out with a message board that we did 20 years ago, and we someone started to call me the warden, like I was the warden, and and they were in the cells, and so they were known as celllies for years. And so um, that's where it started. And some of the OG fans are like, I'm still a proud celly, and so they call me the warden, which is great. And the reason why my team is called Team Wad is because the joke is I have a terrible signature. I have two signatures, one where you'll see JR Ward, and then one which is basically JWD. And for years it just looked like I was putting Wad, you know, JR Wad there, and so they called it. We've been calling them JR Wad for years. So that's kind of funny.

Jonathan: 42:03
For so you mentioned luck, but you did work really hard through life.

Mari: 42:14
Yeah, that's that's true. That's true.

Jonathan: 42:17
Uh your your education, your your background is it's uh tremendous. It's it's nothing to to like to gloss over. The work that you uh did prior to to writing is is kind of that aligns with what actually and I do today. Really? Yeah, oh yeah. We're we're we're we're definitely in that in that field as a profession. Uh I don't we're not lawyers. Uh but we are we work in healthcare admin. Yeah. What's the what was the catalyst? Like what was the moment that you were like, all right, I've I have I I've I've done this and it's been it's been real, it's been fun. But I what's the catalyst that made you that stoke that flame to to lead and venture off in this in this new direction? Or maybe not new, but that

Jonathan: 43:15
 you released into this.

JR Ward: 43:17
So so I wrote my first story when I was seven years old. And I still have it. It's called George and the Dragon. And what's interesting about it is it had narrative it had a narrative structure to it. It it had characters, it had conflict, and it at seven years old. So this is just what my brain does. It's what my mom calls my software. I came preloaded. And so it's like someone who's got an affinity for math. It's just it's not anything that is I don't have any control over it. It it's just literally like the color of my eyes or my hair. It just is what it is. And I fell in love with Harlequin romances. Harlequin presents when I was in my teens and Joanna Lindsay and Elizabeth Lowell. And I just, that's what I read. That and Stephen King. And my mom always used to say, you know, you should try and write, you know, a romance. You should you should try this. I said, absolutely not, Mother. I have to go make a living. I need to go be, you know, I'm going to college. And then I need to be serious. And so, of course, I I went to college and got a double major in history and art history with a medieval concentration of both because that translates so well into guaranteed employment on the other side of college. So I said, Mom, I gotta go to law school because I gotta make a living. I gotta take care of myself. Because I never thought I'd get married. I was never that that was never a thing for me. I was never written to kids. I wanted to take care of myself and then I wanted to be out in the world as a business person. And so I went to law school. And when I got out of law school, I started out at Touchdown Medical Center. And I was there for two years. And I didn't, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I'm not really social. I was always into running and athletics and stuff. But I would go home after I worked long days, and on the weekends I would write stories, and that's just what I did. And then I remember walking down by the common. It was November around Thanksgiving and it was cold. And I was walking towards Beacon Hill, Charles Street, where I lived off of Charles Street. And I looked around at this bracing cold night that surrounded me. And I thought, if this is all there is to life, I'm so okay with it. I'm so okay with never getting married and never having kids. And I love my job. I love this writing thing that I do that's never going to go anywhere. I love my family. I love Boston. I had this moment of ringing clarity. And then, of course, I was set up on a blind date and I met Neville. Uh and I opened up the door, took one look at him, and I was like, he's a piece of ass. And you know, I know. And I was like, great. So that was my plan. And Neville and I went out on New Year's Day in 97 or 98. We can't remember which year it was because my diary had didn't put the year in it. And it was a very cold day. And we went to have a bite to eat. And he said he can remember sitting across from me and thinking, Holy shit, I'm gonna marry this woman. Oh. So he was the one who, as I said, read these, you know, partials. So this is a book, and he had an in with an agent. I was at that time chief of staff of Betherso Deaconus Medical Center, which is one of Harvard's academic medical centers. And I was working huge long hours, you know, leaving the house, getting my workout in, working seven to seven, seven to eight every day. Um, but I was able to carve out like a business meeting, an hour in the morning to just write. And then I wrote all weekend long. And that's what I did for for you know, all these things. And then when I got my contract, I was like, okay, now I've got deadlines. So I just made sure that I worked when I could work and then worked all weekend long. And I did it for, I don't know, two years or so, and got a couple books in the pipeline. And then Neville and I got married, and the literally after we got married, came back from the honeymoon, sitting down to the table at our lovely condo in Cambridge, and he looked at me and he said, I no longer know what I'm doing in Boston. And I dropped my fork and said, I am not moving to Kentucky, which is where he's from. And we all know, we all know what what happened there. But it but to be honest with you, I mean, I I was working seven days a week, really long hours, and I was getting tired. I had been doing that for almost a decade at that point, and I loved working at the hospitals. I loved, loved what I was doing. But it was, you know, healthcare was a very, as you, as you all know, a very challenging environment. Managed care was just coming in at that point. Um Thursday had gone through a merger and there were you know financial things that needed to be ironed out, and there's always stuff going on at hospitals. And so the stress was really aging me. It was it was really grinding me up. And so eventually I thought I was like, you know, I now have this contract for writing. And I thought, well, the contract dollars will go further in Kentucky than they will in Boston. If he really wants to move back where, you know, his heart is, because this community in Louisville is is his heart and soul. Um, I was like, okay. I was like, so we moved down here and I promptly got shit-canned by my publisher. And I was like, well, this worked out great. And I was like, holy shit, I'm gonna have to take the Kentucky bar and I'm gonna be a lawyer for the rest of my life. And that was when Dark Lover came to me. And and then I was off to the races. And so the transition really, I did both for two or three years. And and still, even to this day, I still work seven days a week. There are no vacations, there's no sick days. I mean, unless I'm, you know, getting teeth removed or I'm throwing up. I, you know, I always work, no excuses, no whining. And, you know, I I'm I'm the luckiest person in the world because I get to do what I love for a living. And I I get to be with my dogs and my kid, and which I never thought I'd have one of those. So that was another surprise. So I had all kinds of plans and patterns, and they all got shit canned, and I I've had I've had a wonderful time. And I want to continue. I'm still as all in, even after all these years. I'm still fascinated with the books that come out of my head. I'm still excited to start working everything. Even the worst day writing is still the best day doing anything else. Nice. Yeah.

Jonathan: 50:15
That's exciting. I I the and it's impactful even across whether whether people acknowledge it or not, even across professional environments today, I can't tell you the connection that I'm able to make cross-country with colleagues over fantasy.

Mari: 50:37
Oh, really? No kidding.

Jonathan: 50:39
Yeah, people are excited to talk about what they read about. And uh and sometimes it comes out of left field when when the boy on the other side of the teams meeting is in the You're like, I love Sarah J Moss too.

Mari: 50:54
Yeah. I can't wait for 67 to come out. Yeah.

Jonathan: 50:59
I can wait. I can wait.

JR Ward: 51:02
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to, and please, I didn't mean to disrespect them all. I was using that as the example. I was just like, I was just, I was extrapolating. I'm not okay, I'm not pushing her on you.

Mari: 51:11
I'm sorry.

Jonathan: 51:12
No, it's okay.

Mari: 51:14
Ashley. When I started these books, then we've we pulled the guys into it. And I believe the last time we talked about us, I

Mari: 51:20
 think, Jonathan, you have as many books as Ash does now. Like you guys are a tool, we're hardcore in your household now. That's fantastic.

JR Ward: 51:30
So tell me what yeah, what do you like to read? Who do you read?

Jonathan: 51:34
Who do I read? Oh, I'm all over. I'm all over the place. I've been going down this like the sapphic journey lately. Oh I am I it's and romanticity has opened, has opened me up. I used to just read like leadership oriented, Brene Brown, the Simon Stock. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all that, all those good business-y things.

Mari: 51:57
Yeah.

Jonathan: 51:58
And then I think it was probably Ashley and probably Ashley and Mari and another another friend who was like, hey, you gotta read this dragony book on uh Rebecca Yarrow's fourth fourth wing. And then so we kind of went down that rabbit hole, and then Mari was like, Hey, do you guys want to just start reading books and do podcasts? And I was like, you know what? Yeah, it sounds fun.

Mari: 52:25
I gotta say the podcast was Kelly's idea. Kelly pushed me to it. I would not have done the podcast thing if Kelly had been like, do it.

JR Ward: 52:31
You know, just do it. I think it's great. I think it's great. I love, I love a good podcast, man. I'm telling you. Yeah.

Jonathan: 52:39
So on my desk, um, right now, bottom up, I've got Julie Soto, Melissa Landers, Matt Dinnerman's hanging out in there. Rebecca, Rebecca's still on here. Um, Heather Fawcett. I gotta turn this around.

Ashley: 52:55
He has also learned to judge a book by its cover. We are obsessed with just pretty books and sprayed edges.

JR Ward: 53:05
Uh that's become a new problem. Not an opportunity.

Ashley: 53:11
No, no, no, it's a problem because baseball cards you can put in a folder, right? And put them on the coffee table and have 6,000 of them. Yeah. But to have 6,000 books, like we might need to move this year. We're gonna do. That's a problem. Yeah.

JR Ward: 53:26
We are literally overflowing. One of the things that I love about the romanticy thing is that it is it goes against every grain of everything that anyone ever said, which is oh, younger generation doesn't read and they're not gonna read hard cut physical books are dead. You know, I mean, they said it in Ghostbusters, print is dead. E you know, Egon said that. So, and what I love is now that the books are so they're they're like collectibles. And I love people collect like different versions of the same book. And I just I think I think it's wonderful.

Jonathan: 53:59
Yeah, we were just we were just having that conversation this weekend how every book that comes out, we have we have three versions. We get the it's there's the the Kindle version, the audio, and then the the physical on top of that. And it just it just it compounds. And then when I finally set like I discovered Yeah, there's some monster fuckery this year as well, which was very interesting. And then and then it landed me in a not not trouble, but I had a I was on a call on a meeting, a teams meeting on camera, and there were some titles in the background that people had questions about. It just opened the door to other conversations. Yeah, it's it's all but made it very interesting. Uh and I'm very content with having the collection of books. I I understand Mari's TBR flows all of a sudden.

Ashley: 54:55
The struggle is real. Yes. The struggle is real.

Jonathan: 54:59
Absolutely. If uh

Jonathan: 55:00
 If I were to if I were I have a niece, and my niece is discovering writing. We try to foster that, but she's like actually five, six. She's a bonus niece, we'll say it's not that I'm a poor uncle where I'm not paying attention. Yeah, right, right. The so sometimes I'll trade her, I'll like hand I'll recycle materials and like bind her a journal and the the trade-off is at the next holiday I'd like to hear a story. Um how do we continue to what advice do you give the six-year-old to to keep pressing forward, even if it's if she's almost uncommon amongst what's popular with her peers?

JR Ward: 55:46
Um you mean in terms of what her hobbies and interests are with her peers, or what do what what do you you mean like how do we keep her writing and um and feed her um her desire to write? Um, you know what I found in in in a lot of the writers that I know is you can't stop it. Most of the people that I know who write have to write. It's like it's and and maybe you could argue that my res representative sample is skewed because you know, I I that's my profession, so I know a lot of writers. But in my experience, writers have to write. And so any I love the idea of you saying, okay, I'll give you this and you've got to give me a story. Because it gives her for children, adult attention is weighted space. It's weighted, it's it's it's more important to her at her age, at six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, until they become teenagers. And even and teenagers, you know, adult attention in and focus is such an important thing for kids. And she'll rise to meet that prompt. And I think you sound like you all sound like very supportive, kind people because your questions are supportive. And and I think most people who like books and are real book people, you know what I mean? Tend to have an interest in in humanity because we read to learn more about ourselves and learn about other people and think about things. And and so I think the the extent to which you can open that space for her and hold it for her, I think that that's that's that's what you need to do. And then also at some point, her inner critic is gonna wake up and tell her she's writing crap. And that's the real challenge, is and that's where those writers that are have that kind of obsessional thing where they have to do it, that's what gets most people I know over that inner critic when it starts to kick in. Oh, you write shit. And now I, you know, I I have days where I'm like, okay, you've written shit today. And I'm like, yeah, well, I got I don't, it's not like I got a B plan. I'm still gonna be at it tomorrow, you know. I'm gonna write shit tomorrow, you know. And I think that as as as depending on what her goals are, I think, you know, uh dealing with that inner critic is something that everyone has to kind of come to terms with at some point. But but the first and most important thing is the love of it. The love of it, the need to do it. And, you know, I think the extent to which her family can help her see that what she does is worth reading, I think that that will will be the kind of support she needs.

Jonathan: 58:31
I love that. I love the idea that you can't stop it. No, not at all.

JR Ward: 58:40
I that at least in my experience.

Jonathan: 58:43
I'm excited. I'm I'm thrilled. I can't wait to see what's next.

JR Ward: 58:48
Yay! Yay, what's your niece's name? Not last name, obviously, but her first name.

Jonathan: 58:53
Gracie.

JR Ward: 58:55
Gracie. Tell Gracie from tell Gracie from one author to another. I hope she keeps it up.

Jonathan: 59:03
Oh I hope so too. She gets I think she gets what what you mentioned about that desiring that that that that level of attention. I I when she has a story that she wants to share, I mean it's just it's heartwarming. It's kind of like when you're at the at a at a at a family dinner table and she's spent she's poured her her time and energy into into writing. Oh, what a treat.

JR Ward: 59:32
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, definitely give her my message if you can.

Jonathan: 59:39
Absolutely.

Ashley: 59:40
We'll see her soon. So absolutely.

Mari: 59:43
Yay.

Jonathan: 59:44
I have one last question, 

Jonathan: 59:45
maybe. Um up to you, of course. I so a number of different uh uh pen names, are there are are they do they represent different personalities?

JR Ward: 59:58
No, actually, uh sorry, I was just gonna jump. No, there's just one troll who types uh No, that's that's it. It's just one. So so Jessica Bird is is my actual name. And so I figured just that was the name I used coming out of it. When we just when it became clear that the vampires were going to be published, the way it works, especially back then, because there were no options for self-publishing really on the scale that there are now for traditional publishing and for the accounts and everything. We we needed to signal that this was not a Jessica Byrd book, that this was a new thing. And one of the things that was really important to me was that my readers, or anybody who wanted to read my my my books had as little barrier between them and the book as possible. So J.R. Ward was an easy to spell, unambiguous name. Award's an old family name on my mom's side, and then Jessica Rowley are, you know, that's one of my two middle names. And so that's where the J.R. Ward came. And and it was meant to be something that if someone said, Oh, oh, what's that book by oh, that's J. Ward, you know, it was meant to be something, and it wasn't, and honestly, I, you know, for it to be ambiguous about whether it's a man or a woman, that that wasn't a thing. It was just literally just the the initials. I just wanted to make it simple and easy. And then Jessica Ward was just, we we didn't want to bring St. Ambrose School for Girls out under the J Award name because it really just didn't fit. And when you are an author like me with with a with a big fan base and and a lot of fans and a lot of readers, you you don't want to confuse, not confusing that that that is seems disrespectful. I don't mean it to be like that. It it just for the market, you want to be like, okay, this is a JR Award book. You know what that means after you've been reading them for a while. You know that expectation. Um so we want, yes, yes. And and so Jessica Awards seems like a nice uh compromise between the two. And so that's where the names

JR Ward: 01:02:05
 came from.

Jonathan: 01:02:06
Wonderful. Thank you.

JR Ward: 01:02:08
All right, well, thank you, you guys. I really appreciate it. And also thank you for doing this over the phone so I didn't have to put the Jair Award hair and face on. I'm sitting here literally in my pink bathrobe and my box. I've got pink bathrobe and my flannel pajamas.

Mari: 01:02:25
Yeah, it is pajama time through and through. Absolutely.

JR Ward: 01:02:28
Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate you guys. Thanks so much, you guys. It was lovely. I really appreciate it. Thanks, everybody.